2007-07-16 21:48:08 Anonymous 124.117.17.185 [Reply]
“Finally there is ambition: the desire to gain fame, status, and even the power or money it brings.”
———-Artists can be beings who judge themselves according to a faith of pursuing “art.” Or one might say, “God.” This intangible, ever-present testing is somewhat like the second point he mentioned. However, I think that, in fact, just like scientists, for artists too, at times the source of recognition is detached from the masses, which directly makes the pursuit of so-called fame and profit simply become useless, without any reason.
UNIC
2007-07-16 21:53:49 Anonymous 124.117.17.185 [Reply]
“Like artists, what scientists pursue is entirely “personal”; this is not to say that scientists do not need to take account of society and others’ interests, but such consideration is only ethical and negative in nature—that is, scientists should bear some responsibility for the adverse consequences their research causes and do their best to avoid them, but in any case this consideration is by no means the true motive of scientific research.”
____________________I still believe that there are artists and scientists who take the interests of the public or the people as their own duty. It is diverse: some are purely personal, and some are very broad-minded and philanthropic—it depends on what science/art means in their eyes.
Hardy was too absolute, but the innocent are without blame.
But the excerpt above is your own words, right? ~~~~
UNIC
2007-07-16 21:59:50 Anonymous 124.117.17.185 [Reply]
If it can be defended at all, then it can only be defended as art.
I hope this sentence has not the slightest meaning of belittling art.
Gǔ Chù
2007-07-16 22:30:46 http://epr.ycool.com/ [Reply]
Hardy did not belittle art; rather, like many other pure mathematicians, he believed mathematics to be the highest art.
Of course there do exist scientists who take the interests of the public or the people as their own duty; the honorees of China’s Two Bombs, One Satellite of course were all such people, and I have no doubt of their sincerity. Whether one works for the individual or for society mainly depends on different people rather than different disciplines; I have told you this before. But here I am only following Hardy’s line of thought and speaking about scientists as Hardy understood them.
Gǔ Chù
2007-07-16 22:56:19 http://epr.ycool.com/ [Reply]
Sometimes I, too, like Hardy, think that scientists who devote themselves to the public good, just like artists who devote themselves to pleasing the masses, are not “real” scientists or artists. Although I certainly support diverse motivations for research and scholarship (I wrote an article about this specifically before), I must admit that “serving the people” does not really add much to the image of a certain scientist in my mind. Of course, as an ordinary citizen, altruism is certainly admirable and praiseworthy, but for a scientist as a scientist, it is really an irrelevant quality. Hardy also mentioned that if his research results could benefit others, he certainly had no reason not to be glad about that, but this was not the key point of his research activity itself.
UNIC
2007-07-17 00:05:47 Anonymous 222.82.69.241 [reply]
“Just like artists who devote themselves to pleasing the masses….”
Does serving the people simply mean gaining the people’s recognition? Or is it even directly just pleasing the masses?
Serving the people can also mean not being recognized. For example, some writers.
Gu Chu
2007-07-17 09:46:15 http://epr.ycool.com/ [reply]
Then tell me, what does “serving the people” mean for an artist?
What I mean by “devoting oneself to pleasing the masses” is not the same as “gaining the people’s recognition”; the motive of gaining recognition is more like what Hardy called “ambition” or “aspiration.” A truly altruistically driven artist (if such a thing exists) does not necessarily devote himself to gaining the people’s recognition, but rather to bringing what he considers good to the world. Yet here, I think that the motive of dedicating one’s work to the world is in any case no match for the motive of pursuing the work one oneself considers good—if one does not have love and devotion for art to begin with, if one does not have faith in one’s own work and ideals, then with only the motive of giving to others, it is impossible to become a “real” artist. There are many ways to benefit others; why should he choose art? If he himself had not first been deeply attracted by art, how would he have chosen to use art to benefit others? In the final analysis, altruistic motives are always secondary and irrelevant to the bigger picture for an artist, whereas those “personal” motives are what determine an artist as an artist.
UNIC
2007-07-17 17:38:07 Anonymous 220.171.183.101 [reply]
Then
is Tolstoy an artist?
Is Lu Xun an artist?
What is the definition of an artist?
Gu Chu
2007-07-17 19:35:25 http://epr.ycool.com/ [reply]
We once discussed a similar question: if someone creates several widely beloved poems, but does not identify with the life of a poet, does that make him a poet? My view is that he wrote poetry, but he does not count as a true poet; a true poet is a way of life, and does not depend on his works.
Some people may have created epoch-making achievements in the history of science, but that does not mean he must be a true scientist. Some people may live on forever through their writings and works, but they may likewise not be true writers or artists. A true scientist or artist, too, is a way of life; it is a title belonging only to those who take science or art, truth or beauty, as their own lives—and it does not require their works to be all that important or famous.
This is not my definition of an artist (I do not have that authority), but only a somewhat extreme interpretation. Of course I also recognize the usual understanding, such as using artist as a respected title or as the name of a profession. Basically speaking, language always belongs to the public, and the definition of a word ultimately depends on public recognition. What I myself am expressing is not a “judgment” (I have no right to judge who is or is not an artist), but only an attitude or an emotion.
unic
2007-07-17 21:54:47 Anonymous 124.117.17.225 [reply]
Hard to say, let’s keep looking.
Gu Chu
2007-07-20 20:13:13 http://epr.ycool.com/ [reply]
I thought of an analogous way of putting it:
Imagine such a person (this is a very realistic situation): he is a thoroughgoing atheist, and yet he feels that his nation is facing a crisis and urgently needs to be united by some kind of faith, otherwise it will always remain a heap of loose sand. So he chooses to spread a religion by taking practical action himself, teaching people to believe in God, and he does an excellent job at it. As a result, people in their desperate situation become filled with hope and become united…. In terms of behavior, this nationalist is without question a good believer, and may even be a preacher or founder of a religion; yet if we finally came to know his true motives, I think I would still say that he is absolutely not a “real” believer, because the altruistic motive that moved him to devote himself to religion, however noble, is not a religious motive. No matter how successful his proselytizing is, no matter how strictly he follows the doctrine, no matter how much he is recognized by the people, in the final analysis he remains an atheist, not a true believer.
In short, when I emphasize “a real …,” what I am emphasizing is faith.
UNIC
2007-07-21 20:18:29 Anonymous 222.82.73.73 [reply]
“… but is not a religious motive….” I think I understand what you mean: you mean that this still makes use of religion, right? By this so-called “religious motive,” do you mean that it should be that real sense of need for religion that comes only after going beyond reason, right?
Heh, I agree. So that means that when he was treating religion as a tool for restoring the nation, he was actually pouring out a settled value system of his own. And the true religious motive should be only a purely inward sense of searching, a sense of exploration? Rather than the practice of some value system that is actually unrelated to religion, right?
Heh, in that case religion has also become technology, a tool. Actually Christianity and Buddhism seem all right, but Islam in its day was, to a large extent, motivated precisely by considerations of restoring the nation….
What I said above may be wrong, and some of it is still not very clear. I’ve thought very little about this aspect.
Translated from the Chinese original with AI assistance. The original text is authoritative.
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